tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post9183155732319453360..comments2024-03-28T09:55:48.460+00:00Comments on <p align="right">Steve's Random <br>Musings on Wargaming <br>and other stuff...</p>: Definition of "Old School Wargaming"??Steve-the-Wargamerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07077311120172727690noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-67096407075223692412013-03-26T12:28:07.568+00:002013-03-26T12:28:07.568+00:00I would be honored and proud to consider myself an...I would be honored and proud to consider myself an "old school" wargamer, but in keeping with the gentlemanly aspect of the theme of the definition, I would suggest that it is a distinction which is bestowed upon a person, rather than one presumptuously assumed upon oneself.<br />That being said, I can in all truth say that I have been referred to on a number of occasions as running Old School games.<br />No Army lists or point values are overtly evident, but far in the background, there was some basis for creating my pseudo-historical campaigns, set in some portion of the Napoleonic wars, where forces clashed, but the results were not the decisive action of the overall greater (unseen) campaign.<br />Think of the many diverse clashes where Napoleon was NOT there, defense of France in 1814, Wallerchen (sp?), the northern thrust in 1812, or the Austrians during the Invasion of Russia, as examples.<br />But to require that one must have viewed all (or any) of the exploits of Callan would unjustly rule out many North American 'gamers, who have not access to that much-lauded British series.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-54129591353189410282013-03-26T07:44:26.671+00:002013-03-26T07:44:26.671+00:00Very interesting post, I've been thinking of c...Very interesting post, I've been thinking of commenting in a similar vein. There seems to be a growing trend in the hobby away from the values you have outlined, particularly expressed by the Games Workshop generation. Or perhaps it's just because I'm getting old!carojonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11826580638291659193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-40871133026983211482013-03-01T09:39:53.900+00:002013-03-01T09:39:53.900+00:00Legatus - indubitably (and that's an "os&...Legatus - indubitably (and that's an "os" word if ever there was one)Steve-the-Wargamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077311120172727690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-23685684544177063642013-03-01T09:39:12.494+00:002013-03-01T09:39:12.494+00:00Crazy Joe - "when things weren't flashy b...Crazy Joe - "when things weren't flashy but empty of substance" - I like that very much....Steve-the-Wargamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077311120172727690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-59356357805804985802013-03-01T08:47:29.558+00:002013-03-01T08:47:29.558+00:00Late to this post due to being north of Hadrian...Late to this post due to being north of Hadrian's Wall for a bit but I think by your definition I am old school too (or maybe just old). legatus hedliushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17078980742683576345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-42615746098488964092013-02-23T07:23:54.836+00:002013-02-23T07:23:54.836+00:00There's probably a danger that we lose the ...There's probably a danger that we lose the 'simplicity' of approach with OS gaming and end up with a 200pp explanation, so I had a scout around for a pithy definition and found an interesting one in the 'Urban Dictionary":<br /><br /> - A positive appellation referring to when things weren't flashy but empty of substance, were done by hard work, didn't pander to the lowest common denominator, and required real skill. Labour-saving devices, shortcuts that reduce quality and quitting before the task is done are not characteristics of "old school."<br /><br />Now I'm quite happy with this, but I suspect the great unwashed view OS wargaming as the personification of the three characteristics you've defined (and we've agreed) as not OS.<br /><br />Maybe a marketing job for Henry in his new publication?<br /><br />;O)<br /><br />BTW OS wargamers don't quit before the task is done, they simply have an expanding list of projects that are work in progress . . . .<br />GaryAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06963552380378929829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-52485223375901567622013-02-23T03:58:45.957+00:002013-02-23T03:58:45.957+00:00Yes. Now that you mention it, it really is more t...Yes. Now that you mention it, it really is more the players than the game itself. I can get behind old school being a state of mind.Nick von Coverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12440687993184647932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-31939529900370660362013-02-22T15:56:38.894+00:002013-02-22T15:56:38.894+00:00I agree with Henry - 'old school' rules or...I agree with Henry - 'old school' rules or 'old school style' rules are concise, simple and playable; original 'old school' rules may reflect out-dated ideas about historical combat, such as the emphasis on numerous volleys of musketry, rather than a quick volley and bayonet charge (as demonstrated by Paddy Griffith in The Face of Battle), deciding infantry clashes in the Peninsular War, but they remain fun to play; 'old school style' rules can incorporate modern thinking with rule simplicity. Any system that has a 200pp rulebook, a QRS of more than 2pp and requires an internet discussion group to resolve interpretation thereof is not, IMHO, 'old school'. arthur1815https://www.blogger.com/profile/12333670394529977263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-59561961933882476292013-02-22T15:45:36.194+00:002013-02-22T15:45:36.194+00:00Oops, double-posted...Oops, double-posted...Henry Hydehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916064816309053938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-35087471888065135242013-02-22T15:44:54.487+00:002013-02-22T15:44:54.487+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Henry Hydehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916064816309053938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-81859954388994106442013-02-22T15:44:45.453+00:002013-02-22T15:44:45.453+00:00I think what Dartfrog describes is what I'd ca...I think what Dartfrog describes is what I'd call "middle school", all the Quarry-Newbury-WRG malarkey of the late 70s/early 80s. Mind you, at the time, I played them happily and didn't blink.Henry Hydehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916064816309053938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-76395888101292014362013-02-22T10:21:06.239+00:002013-02-22T10:21:06.239+00:00Dartfrog - I would say old school gamers are enjoy...Dartfrog - I would say old school gamers are enjoyable opponents, but I consider myself 'os' :o) One correction, just because they are old doesn't make something old school - we're a broad church and regrettably often sidetracked..... Byzantine rule systems can be old school, usually aren't though, as we erudite/learned types soon realised that if the rules are good then most decisions can be made with a D6 or maybe 2D6... :o)Steve-the-Wargamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077311120172727690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-33634173047598061592013-02-22T09:53:30.149+00:002013-02-22T09:53:30.149+00:00Nick - with the proviso that this is purely my att...Nick - with the proviso that this is purely my attempt at a definition, and what I see as being old school (small o, small s) then largely I agree - my only point would be that "1500 points a side" can be old school - it's purely down to the manner in which the game is played... the game/scenario/rules/scale/period are largely immaterial if two 'os' gamers meet across the table...... :o)Steve-the-Wargamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077311120172727690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-72137097322383179002013-02-22T01:24:41.780+00:002013-02-22T01:24:41.780+00:00Your description of "Old School" seems m...Your description of "Old School" seems more to be in line with "people who are enjoyable to play against." I think the other aspect of "Old School" you left out is "Byzantine rule systems written in tiny, cramped text with potential modifiers for everything." Whilst I do miss detailed written orders, I do not miss 2 hours per turn....Dartfroghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01786991975241723198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-3292409064784639702013-02-21T22:46:36.015+00:002013-02-21T22:46:36.015+00:00Anything that has a points system to generate the ...Anything that has a points system to generate the forces is not Old School. Old School to me is when somebody creates a scenario with forces that are not necessarily equal in strength. The leveling of the battlefield is accomplished with terrain, hidden set up, and/or victory conditions. The forces involved don't even have to be historical.<br /><br />For instance, an largely outnumbered force fighting a desperate delaying action while engineers attempt to blow a bridge, with victory determined by success or failure, is Old School. 1500 points per side of Germans and British on a table with a bridge on it is not.Nick von Coverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12440687993184647932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-2474673285995857142013-02-20T18:53:48.665+00:002013-02-20T18:53:48.665+00:00Henry - who would have thought that spell checker ...Henry - who would have thought that spell checker could be so deeply Freudian....? that made me chuckle...Steve-the-Wargamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077311120172727690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-25298565747604786022013-02-20T17:41:16.320+00:002013-02-20T17:41:16.320+00:00"...in to some coherant hole...".
I do ..."...in to some coherant hole...".<br /><br />I do so very much hope you mean "whole", old bean.Henry Hydehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916064816309053938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-51266926129473244232013-02-20T13:00:06.314+00:002013-02-20T13:00:06.314+00:00:o)
"A well-knotted cravat is the first seri...:o)<br /><br />"A well-knotted cravat is the first serious step in a man’s life".<br />Oscar Wilde<br /><br />"A cravat, a pipe and a robe define a man’s elegance".<br />Clark GableSteve-the-Wargamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077311120172727690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-58091306815501039662013-02-20T12:58:20.363+00:002013-02-20T12:58:20.363+00:00Cheers Ion - picking and choosing the elements of ...Cheers Ion - picking and choosing the elements of different rules sets that you like, and then bashing them together in to some coherant hole is a real indicator that you are "os" .. :o)Steve-the-Wargamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077311120172727690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-12396410815545952112013-02-20T12:56:24.138+00:002013-02-20T12:56:24.138+00:00Ta Stryker...Ta Stryker...Steve-the-Wargamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077311120172727690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-54121209032403202192013-02-20T00:29:38.647+00:002013-02-20T00:29:38.647+00:00"There is not time in which a tie is not impo..."There is not time in which a tie is not important."-Jeeves.Jubilohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15008211040948569509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-16185529692091918052013-02-19T21:21:57.632+00:002013-02-19T21:21:57.632+00:00True, squaring the circle on that one (Warhammer) ...True, squaring the circle on that one (Warhammer) means I have to be very choosy about my opponents for it nowadays...AKIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00603611698724045609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-161846283503954672013-02-19T21:08:52.783+00:002013-02-19T21:08:52.783+00:00For mine, I am largely in agreement with your ... ...For mine, I am largely in agreement with your ... description, Steve. I think if on a scale of 1 to 10 in which 10 is your OS as describes, I'd come down as an 8 or 9 - not having a hugely large library. I do think about the historical side, though, and on occasion draw my own conclusions - which might not be congruent with prevailing wisdom.<br /><br />I seem to be very OS in terms of my taste in rule sets. I've never ever played Charge or Charles Grant or Featherstone's rule sets as such, but my own rule sets owe a very great deal to all three, with borrowings from other sources as well. Other designs I can respect for how they go about presenting a battle on the table-top (e.g. Fire & Fury and derivatives; Volley & Bayonet; General de Brigade; Shako...) but as a rule I find their mechanics dry and artificial-looking, with occasionally odd, not to say counter-intuitive effects. But that's just me.<br /><br />On a completely different matter: 'bloggerati': brilliant!<br />Cheers,<br />Ion Archduke Piccolohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533325665451889661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-38021247017848183432013-02-19T19:58:52.569+00:002013-02-19T19:58:52.569+00:00I seem to be coming a bit late to the party here b...I seem to be coming a bit late to the party here but for me Old School is just that - I started wargaming in my early teens with my school friends. Our games were always historical (you couldn't buy an Orc back then), we devised our own rules (by and large) and did minimal research - most our info came from the films "Waterloo" and "Cromwell" and from my copies of "Miniature Warfare" magazine. We did have a real laugh though and to this day I only play games that capture that same spirit.<br /><br />Just to pick up on Matt's point about Callan (and yes, I did watch them all!) the other criteria of an Old Schooler is that they must have had a subscription to "Miniature Warfare" Magazine!<br /><br />Good post Steve...Strykerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14258922461691204362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33041938.post-3686302332950754432013-02-19T18:20:00.887+00:002013-02-19T18:20:00.887+00:00Being a bit tongue in cheek, there's an argume...Being a bit tongue in cheek, there's an argument that says the difference between Old School and not is their reaction to a table full of figures:<br /><br />- Old school reaction: What's that? What period? what ruleset?, etc etc <br />- non-old school reaction: Oh. It's not Flames Of Battlehammer HordeWar. Not interested.Mike Whitakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02165272678144625943noreply@blogger.com