Being an account of my wargaming activities, a few sailing stories, some beer related anecdotes, what music I'm listening to.... oh, and anything else that knows me!
Simon - a majority decision for sure - but as I said, in my view a "poor" one... think Bob Cordery summed it up nicely, thank goodness I live in a country where I'm allowed to make my vote though...
Whatever it was based on, it's a poor decision. If the Scots had known that they were voting 2 years ago to stay in a Britain which was not to be in Europe, it's pretty clear that the result then would have been different, and - before I get any racist responses - let it be clear that I voted to stay in the UK. I don't know if I will next time, but the choice must be based on reasoned logic and on viable economics. I am really upset about last night, but Simon is right - it was a democratic choice, and we have to make the best of it. The fact that the whole issue was originally sparked by Cameron's problems with his own party is annoying, but ultimately irrelevant. I am confident that his successors will be further to the right, so I look forward to a renewed focus on the wealthy and the City of London such as we have not seen since the 1930s.
As someone involved in the food industry I think it was a good decision. The UK has some of the highest Food Safety standards in the world. It has in place world leading food health targets such as the 2017 updates for the Salt Reduction levels for foods produced in the UK. The UK imposes more legislation on the food manufacturers in the UK than Europe does on European producers. However, that all means diddly squat when European producers don't have to abide by those rules (and that's fair because they are outside the UK) but can import their products for sale within the UK and no prohibition, tariff or disincentive can be imposed. At the same time the UK has a very high standard of animal welfare but this is not required in the EU and production costs are thus much lower. There is a reason why Danish Bacon is significantly cheaper then English and the large part of that is down to the inability of anyone one country within Europe to restrict trade from another country within the EU. Of course if no one bought it the UK supermarkets wouldn't sell it and so no imports. But we all like a bacon butty don't we and when the price is right....
Exactly the same in Australia Paul. In our case its free trade agreements. I also work in the food industry and those were my first thoughts when I read about the poll.
DC, yes, free trade, and issues with it - but basically that was the crux of (one) of the arguments - do you leave or attempt to fix it from within... I voted in, but I very definitely knew some 'things' needed fixing....
Paul That is actually the first logical outie argument I;ve heard in 4 months or even longer. Why aren't you running the country - can't be worse that the unlikely bunch we are heading for. The EU is far from perfect I voted in because its stupid to run away rather than try to fix the problem. Also some of the outie arguments I heard were simply nasty racism in a posh suit (that would be Farage_) or Thick halfwits down the pub. All the ranting about "Getting my country back" is just emotional twaddle.Pretty disgusted to be English just now.
As one of the 17,410,742 ignorant, gullible racists, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to read (and enjoy) this blog anymore? Scottish Referendum 2014/UK General Election 2015/EU Referendum 2016 - wouldn't life be so much better if we did away with all that democracy stuff?
Jeremy - I reminded my little'un as we left the polling booths that our right to do this had been bought by brave men dying on the beaches in Normandy, Europe and the Far east, and she turned round to me and said, "and also women dying on race courses, and suffering in prison", my work is done... As to the rest of the nonsense, mea culpa, but bear with, normal service will be resumed as soon as possible... hard not to comment on such a gigantic episode in the history of your country, though... I don't doubt Pepys was blogging after the Act of Union.. ;o))
Naughty, naughty, Max - 'United Stated of Europe' as I recall :o)) (This is good by the way - anyone who quotes Beevor gets my attention: http://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2013/11/10/winston-churchill-a-founder-of-the-european-union/)
All fair comments, you may have guessed I voted leave. I worked in the global shipping industry for thirty years. We are better off out of the EU, which blocks much of our trade to other regions. It's time to put the GREAT back into Britain. We will still trade with Europe, they will still want us to buy their cars, wine, cheese and other produce. They will still buy our products. The EU is falling to bits anyway. The Danes, Dutch or Swedes will be next. Do not panic, it will all be ok. By the way the flag at the top of the page has never been ours. I am not a rascist but a realist. If the Scots want to leave the rest of the UK It's fine by me, but how will they survive? The EU does not want them, they made that plain last time. Certain Scots just want referendum after referendum until they win and go anyway.
Simon - with 24 hours to cogitate, I still find it all a bit ... unfortunate, really... I am a fairly patriotic soul, and I find it very sad that as a result of this decision it also looks like the Act of Union will also dissolve and that's over 300 years old, not just 45... wheels within wheels... I'm going to start campaigning now for a free and independent Wessex.. :o))
One gets a tad tired of being labelled, 'little Englander', racist,liar, ignorant, working class, etc etc; I actually dragged my sorry working class backside to a library and did some research regarding the EU; and I quote, Jean Monnet one of the founders of the 'ideal' of the EU; dated April 30th 1952; 'Europe's nations should be guided towards a SUPERSTATE without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps,each DISGUISED as having an ECONOMIC PURPOSE,but which will eventually and IRREVERSIBLY LEAD TO A FEDERATION.' I feel immensely proud of the 17,410,742 ignorant, gullible racists that voted out. So I am not sad,a bit for the frightened of the future, but very proud that the British took a heroic leap in the dark in an attempt to halt an un elected juggernaut and attempt to bring democracy back to the Western World. But what do I know, I am just stupid and based my decision on ignorance, lies and racism.
Gents - let's drop the "racist" labelling... it's emotive, and unhelpful... the decision is made and the majority made it....
Robbie - I'm beginning to regret putting my head above the parapet! You may find this interesting, though, and no, I have no idea if this is any more correct than your definition.. it is provided purely in the interest of counterpoint.. :o)
I too have read this guys blog, after reading through some of his posts, he came to the following conclusion and then wrapped the blog in; 'This European Union is simply not good enough. This European Union needs to be replaced pretty much in its entirety. This European Union has failed.' Seems he came to a similar conclusion as the knuckle dragging British public, except he was better informed after working in the EU.
He may have but my biggest worry is that they have not and we have neither replaced nor reformed the union it still exists all we have done is leave it so we now get no say in replacing or reforming it.
The EU will never be reformed. Too many members, some of which may not be considered as European. Turkey will probably now be allowed to join. Most of its land mass is in Asia...
Bill - I agree with you, but understand where Simon and others are coming from.. fact is we'll never know now so onwards and upwards... spilt milk and all that
Hi Steve, As an outsider who is descended from both Scotland (Grandma McKinley) and England (I'm pretty sure Ferryman is not Native American), I would certainly be loath to see the two nations part ways after what they have accomplished united for so long; which encompasses not only the spread of Western Civilization, but the transmission of the ideals of Western Civilization. Ah well, what will be will be. Values change, so there is always the possibility they will change back again later - or get worse - both have happened before. One can but hope things work out for the best. And paint more toy soldiers. And have a couple shots of tequila. Regards, John
Wise words, John the Ferryman.. apart from the Tequila... that's a very bad idea... "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other invention with the possible exceptions of handguns and Tequila" :o))
I know the TV is highly anecdotal, but they interviwed various older voters today and tgey were mostly astonished that the Health Service would not be getting £350 million a week, that petrol and impirted food would go up in price, tgat it would cost British jobs as inward investors made their next investment within the European boundary. Let us hope the decision leads to an outburst of energy and entrepreneurialism, but no one convinced me of the mechanism by which this was to happen. It is really sad that this is a vote by old people to decide on a future route which the young do not want and seems to be based on a dislike of and disbelief in the political class. Lets face it, given the age and class profile of the outers they are not at all lijely to be founding new businesses to be expirting to the workd outside the EU! All the things said here about the EU are likely true, but they are all fromna little englander perspective. It was Britain's membership of the EU that persuaded others to impose sanctions on Russia and tgat provides the Baltic and Eastern European States with a route to prosperity that enables democratic govt. to survive, similarly in Spain, where EU membership likely prevented a slide into military rule. The argument that the EU exports so much to us that they will have to keep the terms of trade the same. They cannot allow us to leave, save a fortune on fees and get all the benefits. If they do then there will be a rush to the door. If we end up paying the same, but not getting the ability to influence decisions then where will the victory be? Lastly I do blame Merkel and Cameron. Merkel could have agreed a five year period of controlled immigration and kept the free movement principle. Cameon should not have lied about the ability to reduce migration to tens of thousands. In the end though the guilt is with those who voted out, but then having lived through the sixties and seventies one should never be surprised at the delusion that British voters have that they can vote themselves a pay rise.
Lewisgunner... indeed... but I suspect we would have been forced to a referendum in the end anyway, clearly when half the population feels the need to vote out someone would have offered it in their manifesto anyway.. the younger vote is very interesting though, because as you say they clearly seem to be more (small c) conservative than was thought, and seem to have voted largely to remain in.... be interesting to see some empirical evidence over time to see if that initial media view is correct..
I am not a 'little Englander' being an Ulster chap but I voted Leave. I believe there to a rocky road ahead to some degree but prefer to have some short term pain for long term gain. I have no problem with European Union in principle but detest and abhor its Feederalist ideals and the European Court and its overblown buracracy. The that Sinn Fein, Sturgen and Corbyn voted Remain helped tip balance for me to a large degree. If any of this makes me bigoted, racist, dim or otherwise then so be it. Won't stop me playing with little lead men :-)
Sgt Steiner.. I suspect you were not alone in how you decided your vote, to be fair one of the main reasons I voted in was because Farage and Johnson were telling me to vote out.. :o)) The European Court of Human Rights by the way (as I found out) is nothing to do with the EU - that's a separate treaty.... so no change to our membership..
A great day for Democracy in my opinion Steve :) Along this stretch of the Kent & Sussex coast there was very strong support for Leave, especially among the fishing communities from Hythe to Hastings who have been chucking - as one fisherman put it - half their wages back into the sea due to EU quotas.
As for these accusations of racism, well I don't have a racist bone in my body, having grown up in South London you learn to accept multiculturalism as the norm, although it is very different down here.
As a former trade unionist I am slightly more concerned about the rights of UK workers, but if you take the EU directives on working hours for example we are working longer hours now than any other EU country and the maximum working week is flouted by low paid industries such as care, where such as things do not apply and immigrant workers are clocking up 60 -70 hours per week! When I started work 40 years ago the 37.5 hour week was standard, in local care homes around here the staff are going in to work for 48 shifts and even 72 hours in some cases, so much for EU working time directives.
Now let's get back to playing with our soldiers :)
Lee, ultimately you're right, playing with toy soldiers is what this is all about really, but because this is my blog and I'm allowed the last word ( :o) ), I would only say that I expect the working hours to get even longer now that what little protection we had has been removed...
Absolutely Steve. So stupid; a decision based on ignorance, lies and racism.
ReplyDeleteI'm no racist.
Delete1920s/30s Germans weren't all Nazis either. Enough though. Not my blog. We shall see what develops over the coming weeks with interest.
DeleteAbsolutely Steve. So stupid; a decision based on ignorance, lies and racism.
ReplyDeleteColin - decision based on not much real fact - bound to get a bit emotional when there's little hard data to make that decision on...
DeleteAgreed. Not much in the way of real facts at all either way really.
DeleteA decision based on the will of the majority. Nothing to do with racism.
ReplyDeleteSimon - a majority decision for sure - but as I said, in my view a "poor" one... think Bob Cordery summed it up nicely, thank goodness I live in a country where I'm allowed to make my vote though...
DeleteA very small majority for what is a major change, though.
DeleteKaptain Kobold - indeed.. just 4%, but the ramifications are huge....
DeleteAgreed Steve.
ReplyDeleteAKI - yeah.. sigh..
DeleteWhatever it was based on, it's a poor decision. If the Scots had known that they were voting 2 years ago to stay in a Britain which was not to be in Europe, it's pretty clear that the result then would have been different, and - before I get any racist responses - let it be clear that I voted to stay in the UK. I don't know if I will next time, but the choice must be based on reasoned logic and on viable economics. I am really upset about last night, but Simon is right - it was a democratic choice, and we have to make the best of it. The fact that the whole issue was originally sparked by Cameron's problems with his own party is annoying, but ultimately irrelevant. I am confident that his successors will be further to the right, so I look forward to a renewed focus on the wealthy and the City of London such as we have not seen since the 1930s.
ReplyDeleteMax - too right... I can see Stugeron girding her loins already... idiocy abounds....
DeleteAs someone involved in the food industry I think it was a good decision. The UK has some of the highest Food Safety standards in the world. It has in place world leading food health targets such as the 2017 updates for the Salt Reduction levels for foods produced in the UK. The UK imposes more legislation on the food manufacturers in the UK than Europe does on European producers. However, that all means diddly squat when European producers don't have to abide by those rules (and that's fair because they are outside the UK) but can import their products for sale within the UK and no prohibition, tariff or disincentive can be imposed. At the same time the UK has a very high standard of animal welfare but this is not required in the EU and production costs are thus much lower. There is a reason why Danish Bacon is significantly cheaper then English and the large part of that is down to the inability of anyone one country within Europe to restrict trade from another country within the EU. Of course if no one bought it the UK supermarkets wouldn't sell it and so no imports. But we all like a bacon butty don't we and when the price is right....
ReplyDeletePaul - that's fair - my brother in law and sister in law run their own businesses and said the same...
DeleteExactly the same in Australia Paul. In our case its free trade agreements. I also work in the food industry and those were my first thoughts when I read about the poll.
DeleteDC, yes, free trade, and issues with it - but basically that was the crux of (one) of the arguments - do you leave or attempt to fix it from within... I voted in, but I very definitely knew some 'things' needed fixing....
DeletePaul That is actually the first logical outie argument I;ve heard in 4 months or even longer. Why aren't you running the country - can't be worse that the unlikely bunch we are heading for.
DeleteThe EU is far from perfect I voted in because its stupid to run away rather than try to fix the problem. Also some of the outie arguments I heard were simply nasty racism in a posh suit (that would be Farage_) or Thick halfwits down the pub. All the ranting about "Getting my country back" is just emotional twaddle.Pretty disgusted to be English just now.
As one of the 17,410,742 ignorant, gullible racists, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to read (and enjoy) this blog anymore? Scottish Referendum 2014/UK General Election 2015/EU Referendum 2016 - wouldn't life be so much better if we did away with all that democracy stuff?
ReplyDeleteJeremy - I reminded my little'un as we left the polling booths that our right to do this had been bought by brave men dying on the beaches in Normandy, Europe and the Far east, and she turned round to me and said, "and also women dying on race courses, and suffering in prison", my work is done... As to the rest of the nonsense, mea culpa, but bear with, normal service will be resumed as soon as possible... hard not to comment on such a gigantic episode in the history of your country, though... I don't doubt Pepys was blogging after the Act of Union.. ;o))
DeleteOne guy who would have been horrified by today's news is Winston Churchill, though his name has been bandied about a bit of late.
DeleteNaughty, naughty, Max - 'United Stated of Europe' as I recall :o)) (This is good by the way - anyone who quotes Beevor gets my attention: http://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2013/11/10/winston-churchill-a-founder-of-the-european-union/)
DeleteBad decision , I hope we don't regret it , Tony
ReplyDeleteTony - whether we do or don't (regret it), we should do it together..
DeleteAll fair comments, you may have guessed I voted leave. I worked in the global shipping industry for thirty years. We are better off out of the EU, which blocks much of our trade to other regions. It's time to put the GREAT back into Britain. We will still trade with Europe, they will still want us to buy their cars, wine, cheese and other produce. They will still buy our products. The EU is falling to bits anyway. The Danes, Dutch or Swedes will be next. Do not panic, it will all be ok. By the way the flag at the top of the page has never been ours. I am not a rascist but a realist. If the Scots want to leave the rest of the UK It's fine by me, but how will they survive? The EU does not want them, they made that plain last time. Certain Scots just want referendum after referendum until they win and go anyway.
ReplyDeleteSimon - with 24 hours to cogitate, I still find it all a bit ... unfortunate, really... I am a fairly patriotic soul, and I find it very sad that as a result of this decision it also looks like the Act of Union will also dissolve and that's over 300 years old, not just 45... wheels within wheels... I'm going to start campaigning now for a free and independent Wessex.. :o))
DeleteOne gets a tad tired of being labelled, 'little Englander', racist,liar, ignorant, working class, etc etc;
ReplyDeleteI actually dragged my sorry working class backside to a library and did some research regarding the EU; and I quote, Jean Monnet one of the founders of the 'ideal' of the EU; dated April 30th 1952;
'Europe's nations should be guided towards a SUPERSTATE without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps,each DISGUISED as having an ECONOMIC PURPOSE,but which will eventually and IRREVERSIBLY LEAD TO A FEDERATION.'
I feel immensely proud of the 17,410,742 ignorant, gullible racists that voted out. So I am not sad,a bit for the frightened of the future, but very proud that the British took a heroic leap in the dark in an attempt to halt an un elected juggernaut and attempt to bring democracy back to the Western World. But what do I know, I am just stupid and based my decision on ignorance, lies and racism.
Does that mean we've fallen out Robbie? Hope not.
DeleteGents - let's drop the "racist" labelling... it's emotive, and unhelpful... the decision is made and the majority made it....
DeleteRobbie - I'm beginning to regret putting my head above the parapet! You may find this interesting, though, and no, I have no idea if this is any more correct than your definition.. it is provided purely in the interest of counterpoint.. :o)
http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2009/03/exclusive-the-danger-of-jean-monnet/
Steve, I read that earlier. Very good piece.
DeleteDamned sad.
ReplyDeletePeter - I think so... but that's me... bit frightening too.... :o/
DeleteI too have read this guys blog,
ReplyDeleteafter reading through some of his posts, he came to the following conclusion and then wrapped the blog in;
'This European Union is simply not good enough. This European Union needs to be replaced pretty much in its entirety.
This European Union has failed.'
Seems he came to a similar conclusion as the knuckle dragging British public, except he was better informed after working in the EU.
He may have but my biggest worry is that they have not and we have neither replaced nor reformed the union it still exists all we have done is leave it so we now get no say in replacing or reforming it.
ReplyDeleteThe EU will never be reformed. Too many members, some of which may not be considered as European. Turkey will probably now be allowed to join. Most of its land mass is in Asia...
DeleteBill - I agree with you, but understand where Simon and others are coming from.. fact is we'll never know now so onwards and upwards... spilt milk and all that
DeleteHi Steve,
ReplyDeleteAs an outsider who is descended from both Scotland (Grandma McKinley) and England (I'm pretty sure Ferryman is not Native American), I would certainly be loath to see the two nations part ways after what they have accomplished united for so long; which encompasses not only the spread of Western Civilization, but the transmission of the ideals of Western Civilization.
Ah well, what will be will be. Values change, so there is always the possibility they will change back again later - or get worse - both have happened before. One can but hope things work out for the best. And paint more toy soldiers. And have a couple shots of tequila.
Regards,
John
Wise words, John the Ferryman.. apart from the Tequila... that's a very bad idea... "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other invention with the possible exceptions of handguns and Tequila" :o))
DeleteI know the TV is highly anecdotal, but they interviwed various older voters today and tgey were mostly astonished that the Health Service would not be getting £350 million a week, that petrol and impirted food would go up in price, tgat it would cost British jobs as inward investors made their next investment within the European boundary. Let us hope the decision leads to an outburst of energy and entrepreneurialism, but no one convinced me of the mechanism by which this was to happen. It is really sad that this is a vote by old people to decide on a future route which the young do not want and seems to be based on a dislike of and disbelief in the political class. Lets face it, given the age and class profile of the outers they are not at all lijely to be founding new businesses to be expirting to the workd outside the EU!
ReplyDeleteAll the things said here about the EU are likely true, but they are all fromna little englander perspective. It was Britain's membership of the EU that persuaded others to impose sanctions on Russia and tgat provides the Baltic and Eastern European States with a route to prosperity that enables democratic govt. to survive, similarly in Spain, where EU membership likely prevented a slide into military rule. The argument that the EU exports so much to us that they will have to keep the terms of trade the same. They cannot allow us to leave, save a fortune on fees and get all the benefits. If they do then there will be a rush to the door. If we end up paying the same, but not getting the ability to influence decisions then where will the victory be?
Lastly I do blame Merkel and Cameron. Merkel could have agreed a five year period of controlled immigration and kept the free movement principle. Cameon should not have lied about the ability to reduce migration to tens of thousands. In the end though the guilt is with those who voted out, but then having lived through the sixties and seventies one should never be surprised at the delusion that British voters have that they can vote themselves a pay rise.
Lewisgunner... indeed... but I suspect we would have been forced to a referendum in the end anyway, clearly when half the population feels the need to vote out someone would have offered it in their manifesto anyway.. the younger vote is very interesting though, because as you say they clearly seem to be more (small c) conservative than was thought, and seem to have voted largely to remain in.... be interesting to see some empirical evidence over time to see if that initial media view is correct..
DeleteI am not a 'little Englander' being an Ulster chap but I voted Leave. I believe there to a rocky road ahead to some degree but prefer to have some short term pain for long term gain. I have no problem with European Union in principle but detest and abhor its Feederalist ideals and the European Court and its overblown buracracy.
ReplyDeleteThe that Sinn Fein, Sturgen and Corbyn voted Remain helped tip balance for me to a large degree.
If any of this makes me bigoted, racist, dim or otherwise then so be it.
Won't stop me playing with little lead men :-)
Sgt Steiner.. I suspect you were not alone in how you decided your vote, to be fair one of the main reasons I voted in was because Farage and Johnson were telling me to vote out.. :o)) The European Court of Human Rights by the way (as I found out) is nothing to do with the EU - that's a separate treaty.... so no change to our membership..
DeleteA great day for Democracy in my opinion Steve :) Along this stretch of the Kent & Sussex coast there was very strong support for Leave, especially among the fishing communities from Hythe to Hastings who have been chucking - as one fisherman put it - half their wages back into the sea due to EU quotas.
ReplyDeleteAs for these accusations of racism, well I don't have a racist bone in my body, having grown up in South London you learn to accept multiculturalism as the norm, although it is very different down here.
As a former trade unionist I am slightly more concerned about the rights of UK workers, but if you take the EU directives on working hours for example we are working longer hours now than any other EU country and the maximum working week is flouted by low paid industries such as care, where such as things do not apply and immigrant workers are clocking up 60 -70 hours per week! When I started work 40 years ago the 37.5 hour week was standard, in local care homes around here the staff are going in to work for 48 shifts and even 72 hours in some cases, so much for EU working time directives.
Now let's get back to playing with our soldiers :)
Lee, ultimately you're right, playing with toy soldiers is what this is all about really, but because this is my blog and I'm allowed the last word ( :o) ), I would only say that I expect the working hours to get even longer now that what little protection we had has been removed...
Delete